Single Fracture embedded in a porous medium

Greetings everyone,

I am currently using OGS 5.7 on Linux.

I am attempting to run a coupled Groundwater Flow and Heat Transport problemin 3D. I would like to simulate a Geothermal Doublet System with a Discrete Fracture embedded in a porous medium.

I currently have a simple model with one vertical fracture. I am testing the response of the Groundwater Flow process before I implement a coupled process.

I simulate an injection and production well using a Point with +ve and -ve pumping rates in the .st file.

However, I ran into a problem that I can’t seem to get around. When I place the well points outside of the fracture I only get changes in Velocity and Head values in the porous medium and nothing in the fracture. When I place the well points on the fracture, I only get values in the fracture and not in the medium.

It seems to me like only the material group which contains the well points are involved in the simulation.

Has anyone encountered such a problem? Would appreciate some feedback

I attached an image of the result to give a visual perspective. I am new to OGS so I hope I have explained the problem sufficiently. I also attached my .mmp input file as I figure maybe this is where the problem lies.

Regards,
Ariel Thomas

res6.mmp (975 Bytes)

maybe it will work if you change $GEOMETRY_DIMENSION to 2 for fractures. BTW if you want to consider temperature dependent fluid density, you have to use LIQUID_FLOW instead of GROUNDWATER_FLOW process type. Also you set $HEAT_TRANSFER in the MMP file but the parameter is used only for TNEQ process.

Cheers
Nori

···

On 06/05/16 21:57, Ariel Thomas wrote:

Greetings everyone,

I am currently using OGS 5.7 on Linux.

I am attempting to run a coupled Groundwater Flow and Heat Transport
problemin 3D. I would like to simulate a Geothermal Doublet System with
a Discrete Fracture embedded in a porous medium.

I currently have a simple model with one vertical fracture. I am testing
the response of the Groundwater Flow process before I implement a
coupled process.

  I simulate an injection and production well using a Point with +ve and
-ve pumping rates in the .st file.

However, I ran into a problem that I can't seem to get around. When I
place the well points outside of the fracture I only get changes in
Velocity and Head values in the porous medium and nothing in the
fracture. When I place the well points on the fracture, I only get
values in the fracture and not in the medium.

It seems to me like only the material group which contains the well
points are involved in the simulation.

Has anyone encountered such a problem? Would appreciate some feedback

I attached an image of the result to give a visual perspective. I am new
to OGS so I hope I have explained the problem sufficiently. I also
attached my .mmp input file as I figure maybe this is where the problem
lies.

Regards,
Ariel Thomas

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Norihiro Watanabe, Dr.-Ing.
Department of Environmental Informatics

Helmholtz-Zentrum für Umweltforschung GmbH - UFZ
Helmholtz Centre for Environmental Research GmbH - UFZ
Permoserstraße 15 / 04318 Leipzig / Germany
Telefon +49 341 235 1806
norihiro.watanabe@ufz.de / www.ufz.de

Sitz der Gesellschaft: Leipzig
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Leipzig, Handelsregister Nr. B 4703
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: MinDirig Wilfried Kraus
Wissenschaftlicher Geschäftsführer: Prof. Dr. Georg Teutsch
Administrativer Geschäftsführer: N.N.

I actually had the dimension set as 2 before and I thought maybe this was causing the flow to be limited to the 2 dimensions of the fracture… I tried using 3 to see if that would make a difference.

Is it possible that it is related to the .msh file in some where? I created the mesh with GMSH and I suspect the nodes connecting the fracture to the matrix volume are not properly defined.

I noted your comments with respect to the temperature dependent fluid density and I will take that into consideration going forward. Thanks very much.

···

On Friday, May 6, 2016 at 10:46:51 PM UTC+2, Norihiro Watanabe wrote:

maybe it will work if you change $GEOMETRY_DIMENSION to 2 for fractures. BTW if you want to consider temperature dependent fluid density, you have to use LIQUID_FLOW instead of GROUNDWATER_FLOW process type. Also you set $HEAT_TRANSFER in the MMP file but the parameter is used only for TNEQ process.

Cheers
Nori

On 06/05/16 21:57, Ariel Thomas wrote:

Greetings everyone,

I am currently using OGS 5.7 on Linux.

I am attempting to run a coupled Groundwater Flow and Heat Transport
problemin 3D. I would like to simulate a Geothermal Doublet System with
a Discrete Fracture embedded in a porous medium.

I currently have a simple model with one vertical fracture. I am testing
the response of the Groundwater Flow process before I implement a
coupled process.

I simulate an injection and production well using a Point with +ve and
-ve pumping rates in the .st file.

However, I ran into a problem that I can’t seem to get around. When I
place the well points outside of the fracture I only get changes in
Velocity and Head values in the porous medium and nothing in the
fracture. When I place the well points on the fracture, I only get
values in the fracture and not in the medium.

It seems to me like only the material group which contains the well
points are involved in the simulation.

Has anyone encountered such a problem? Would appreciate some feedback

I attached an image of the result to give a visual perspective. I am new
to OGS so I hope I have explained the problem sufficiently. I also
attached my .mmp input file as I figure maybe this is where the problem
lies.

Regards,
Ariel Thomas


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Norihiro Watanabe, Dr.-Ing.
Department of Environmental Informatics

Helmholtz-Zentrum für Umweltforschung GmbH - UFZ
Helmholtz Centre for Environmental Research GmbH - UFZ
Permoserstraße 15 / 04318 Leipzig / Germany
Telefon +49 341 235 1806
norihiro...@ufz.de / www.ufz.de

Sitz der Gesellschaft: Leipzig
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Leipzig, Handelsregister Nr. B 4703
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: MinDirig Wilfried Kraus
Wissenschaftlicher Geschäftsführer: Prof. Dr. Georg Teutsch
Administrativer Geschäftsführer: N.N.

yes current OGS implementation requires a mesh in which fracture elements and matrix elements share nodes, and fracture elements are placed along boundaries of matrix elements.

Regards,
Norihiro Watanabe

···

--
Sorry for a short message and any spelling errors. Sent from my mobile phone.

On 8 May 2016 15:31 +0200, Ariel Thomas<ariel.t.thomas@gmail.com>, wrote:

I actually had the dimension set as 2 before and I thought maybe this was causing the flow to be limited to the 2 dimensions of the fracture.. I tried using 3 to see if that would make a difference.

Is it possible that it is related to the .msh file in some where? I created the mesh with GMSH and I suspect the nodes connecting the fracture to the matrix volume are not properly defined.

I noted your comments with respect to the temperature dependent fluid densityand I will take that into consideration going forward. Thanks very much.

On Friday, May 6, 2016 at 10:46:51 PM UTC+2, Norihiro Watanabe wrote:
> maybe it will work if you change $GEOMETRY_DIMENSION to 2 for fractures. BTW if you want to consider temperature dependent fluid density, you have to use LIQUID_FLOW instead of GROUNDWATER_FLOW process type. Also you set $HEAT_TRANSFER in the MMP file but the parameter is used only for TNEQ process.
>
> Cheers
> Nori
>
>
> On 06/05/16 21:57, Ariel Thomas wrote:
> >Greetings everyone,
> >
> >I am currently using OGS 5.7 on Linux.
> >
> >I am attempting to run a coupled Groundwater Flow and Heat Transport
> >problemin 3D. I would like to simulate a Geothermal Doublet System with
> >a Discrete Fracture embedded in a porous medium.
> >
> >I currently have a simple model with one vertical fracture. I am testing
> >the response of the Groundwater Flow process before I implement a
> >coupled process.
> >
> >I simulate an injection and production well using a Point with +ve and
> >-ve pumping rates in the .st file.
> >
> >However, I ran into a problem that I can't seem to get around. When I
> >place the well points outside of the fracture I only get changes in
> >Velocity and Head values in the porous mediumand nothing in the
> >fracture. When I place the well points on the fracture, I only get
> >values in the fracture and not in the medium.
> >
> >It seems to me like only the material group which contains the well
> >points are involved in the simulation.
> >
> >Has anyone encountered such a problem? Would appreciate some feedback
> >
> >I attached an image of the result to give a visual perspective. I am new
> >to OGS so I hope I have explained the problem sufficiently. I also
> >attached my .mmp input file as I figure maybe this is where the problem
> >lies.
> >
> >
> >Regards,
> >Ariel Thomas
> >
> >--
> >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >Groups "ogs-users" group.
> >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> >an email toogs-users+...@googlegroups.com(javascript:)
> ><mailto:ogs-users+...@googlegroups.com(javascript:)>.
> >For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
> --
> Norihiro Watanabe, Dr.-Ing.
> Department of Environmental Informatics
>
>
> Helmholtz-Zentrum für Umweltforschung GmbH - UFZ
> Helmholtz Centre for Environmental Research GmbH - UFZ
> Permoserstraße15 / 04318(tel:15%20/%2004318)Leipzig / Germany
> Telefon+49 341 235 1806(tel:+49%20341%20235%201806)
> norihiro...@ufz.de(javascript:)/www.ufz.de(http://www.ufz.de)
>
>
> Sitz der Gesellschaft: Leipzig
> Registergericht: Amtsgericht Leipzig, Handelsregister Nr. B 4703
> Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: MinDirig Wilfried Kraus
> Wissenschaftlicher Geschäftsführer: Prof. Dr. Georg Teutsch
> Administrativer Geschäftsführer: N.N.
>

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Thanks a lot for the feedback. I have been stumped by this issue for some
time now.

If I understand correctly, the fracture as I have it now is embedded in a
single matrix but for this to work the way I would like, I need to extend
the fracture to the boundaries so that it actually cuts the Matrix into two
"separate" domains which I can then give the same properties?

If this is the case, would you say that it may be impractical to use OGS
for a more complex scenario with several embedded fractures within a matrix
(because this was my next step)

Cheers,
Ariel

···

On Monday, May 9, 2016 at 9:55:28 AM UTC+2, norihiro...@ufz.de wrote:

yes current OGS implementation requires a mesh in which fracture elements
and matrix elements share nodes, and fracture elements are placed along
boundaries of matrix elements.

Regards,
Norihiro Watanabe
--
Sorry for a short message and any spelling errors. Sent from my mobile
phone.

On 8 May 2016 15:31 +0200, Ariel Thomas <ariel.t...@gmail.com > <javascript:>>, wrote:

I actually had the dimension set as 2 before and I thought maybe this was
causing the flow to be limited to the 2 dimensions of the fracture.. I
tried using 3 to see if that would make a difference.

Is it possible that it is related to the .msh file in some where? I
created the mesh with GMSH and I suspect the nodes connecting the fracture
to the matrix volume are not properly defined.

I noted your comments with respect to the temperature dependent fluid
density and I will take that into consideration going forward. Thanks very
much.

On Friday, May 6, 2016 at 10:46:51 PM UTC+2, Norihiro Watanabe wrote:

maybe it will work if you change $GEOMETRY_DIMENSION to 2 for fractures.
BTW if you want to consider temperature dependent fluid density, you have
to use LIQUID_FLOW instead of GROUNDWATER_FLOW process type. Also you set
$HEAT_TRANSFER in the MMP file but the parameter is used only for TNEQ
process.

Cheers
Nori

On 06/05/16 21:57, Ariel Thomas wrote:
> Greetings everyone,
>
> I am currently using OGS 5.7 on Linux.
>
> I am attempting to run a coupled Groundwater Flow and Heat Transport
> problemin 3D. I would like to simulate a Geothermal Doublet System with
> a Discrete Fracture embedded in a porous medium.
>
> I currently have a simple model with one vertical fracture. I am testing
> the response of the Groundwater Flow process before I implement a
> coupled process.
>
> I simulate an injection and production well using a Point with +ve and
> -ve pumping rates in the .st file.
>
> However, I ran into a problem that I can't seem to get around. When I
> place the well points outside of the fracture I only get changes in
> Velocity and Head values in the porous medium and nothing in the
> fracture. When I place the well points on the fracture, I only get
> values in the fracture and not in the medium.
>
> It seems to me like only the material group which contains the well
> points are involved in the simulation.
>
> Has anyone encountered such a problem? Would appreciate some feedback
>
> I attached an image of the result to give a visual perspective. I am new
> to OGS so I hope I have explained the problem sufficiently. I also
> attached my .mmp input file as I figure maybe this is where the problem
> lies.
>
>
> Regards,
> Ariel Thomas
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "ogs-users" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to ogs-users+...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:ogs-users+...@googlegroups.com>.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
Norihiro Watanabe, Dr.-Ing.
Department of Environmental Informatics

Helmholtz-Zentrum für Umweltforschung GmbH - UFZ
Helmholtz Centre for Environmental Research GmbH - UFZ
Permoserstraße 15 / 04318 Leipzig / Germany
Telefon +49 341 235 1806
norihiro...@ufz.de / www.ufz.de

Sitz der Gesellschaft: Leipzig
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Leipzig, Handelsregister Nr. B 4703
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: MinDirig Wilfried Kraus
Wissenschaftlicher Geschäftsführer: Prof. Dr. Georg Teutsch
Administrativer Geschäftsführer: N.N.

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yes I cannot recommend you OGS if you have to stick with that approach. however I don't know other simulators supporting it.

Regards,
Norihiro Watanabe

···

--
Sorry for a short message and any spelling errors. Sent from my mobile phone.

On 9 May 2016 17:23 +0200, Ariel Thomas<ariel.t.thomas@gmail.com>, wrote:

Thanks a lot for the feedback. I have been stumped by this issue for some time now.

If I understand correctly, the fracture as I have it now is embedded in a single matrix but for this to work the way I would like, I need to extend the fracture to the boundaries so that it actually cuts the Matrix into two "separate" domains which I can then give the same properties?

If this is the case, would you say that it may be impractical to use OGS for a more complex scenario with several embedded fractures within a matrix (because this was my next step)

Cheers,
Ariel

On Monday, May 9, 2016 at 9:55:28 AM UTC+2, norihiro...@ufz.de wrote:
> yes current OGS implementation requires a mesh in which fracture elements and matrix elements share nodes, and fracture elements are placed along boundaries of matrix elements.
>
> Regards,
> Norihiro Watanabe
> --
> Sorry for a short message and any spelling errors. Sent from my mobile phone.
>
> On 8 May 2016 15:31 +0200, Ariel Thomas<ariel.t...@gmail.com(javascript:)>, wrote:
> > I actually had the dimension set as 2 before and I thought maybe this was causing the flow to be limited to the 2 dimensions of the fracture.. I tried using 3 to see if that would make a difference.
> >
> > Is it possible that it is related to the .msh file in some where? I created the mesh with GMSH and I suspect the nodes connecting the fracture to the matrix volume are not properly defined.
> >
> > I noted your comments with respect to the temperature dependent fluid densityand I will take that into consideration going forward. Thanks very much.
> >
> > On Friday, May 6, 2016 at 10:46:51 PM UTC+2, Norihiro Watanabe wrote:
> > > maybe it will work if you change $GEOMETRY_DIMENSION to 2 for fractures. BTW if you want to consider temperature dependent fluid density, you have to use LIQUID_FLOW instead of GROUNDWATER_FLOW process type. Also you set $HEAT_TRANSFER in the MMP file but the parameter is used only for TNEQ process.
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > Nori
> > >
> > >
> > > On 06/05/16 21:57, Ariel Thomas wrote:
> > > >Greetings everyone,
> > > >
> > > >I am currently using OGS 5.7 on Linux.
> > > >
> > > >I am attempting to run a coupled Groundwater Flow and Heat Transport
> > > >problemin 3D. I would like to simulate a Geothermal Doublet System with
> > > >a Discrete Fracture embedded in a porous medium.
> > > >
> > > >I currently have a simple model with one vertical fracture. I am testing
> > > >the response of the Groundwater Flow process before I implement a
> > > >coupled process.
> > > >
> > > >I simulate an injection and production well using a Point with +ve and
> > > >-ve pumping rates in the .st file.
> > > >
> > > >However, I ran into a problem that I can't seem to get around. When I
> > > >place the well points outside of the fracture I only get changes in
> > > >Velocity and Head values in the porous mediumand nothing in the
> > > >fracture. When I place the well points on the fracture, I only get
> > > >values in the fracture and not in the medium.
> > > >
> > > >It seems to me like only the material group which contains the well
> > > >points are involved in the simulation.
> > > >
> > > >Has anyone encountered such a problem? Would appreciate some feedback
> > > >
> > > >I attached an image of the result to give a visual perspective. I am new
> > > >to OGS so I hope I have explained the problem sufficiently. I also
> > > >attached my .mmp input file as I figure maybe this is where the problem
> > > >lies.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Regards,
> > > >Ariel Thomas
> > > >
> > > >--
> > > >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > > >Groups "ogs-users" group.
> > > >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> > > >an email toogs-users+...@googlegroups.com
> > > ><mailto:ogs-users+...@googlegroups.com>.
> > > >For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Norihiro Watanabe, Dr.-Ing.
> > > Department of Environmental Informatics
> > >
> > >
> > > Helmholtz-Zentrum für Umweltforschung GmbH - UFZ
> > > Helmholtz Centre for Environmental Research GmbH - UFZ
> > > Permoserstraße15 / 04318(tel:15%20/%2004318)Leipzig / Germany
> > > Telefon+49 341 235 1806(tel:+49%20341%20235%201806)
> > > norihiro...@ufz.de/www.ufz.de(http://www.ufz.de)
> > >
> > >
> > > Sitz der Gesellschaft: Leipzig
> > > Registergericht: Amtsgericht Leipzig, Handelsregister Nr. B 4703
> > > Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: MinDirig Wilfried Kraus
> > > Wissenschaftlicher Geschäftsführer: Prof. Dr. Georg Teutsch
> > > Administrativer Geschäftsführer: N.N.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ogs-users" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email toogs-users+...@googlegroups.com(javascript:).
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